two technical questions

[Hellish Knobend]

I am soon to mix an album that will be out in February/ March, and have two
niggling little problems that maybe you could help me with.

1: I forgot to turn off the air ventilation in the studio before recording
one of the lead vocals. In the quieter passages of the song in question the
hiss is a little flagrant. I have done the obvious things, like
systematically cutting out anything that is not sung, and trying to equalise
with various anti noise plug-ins. But the result of cutting around the
vocals is that the hiss becomes even more apparent because you notice it
stopping and starting all the time, and the plug-ins
eat away too much at the timbre of my vocalist's beautiful voice. (maybe
there is a good one I don't know yet...?) I can not do the vocals again
because the singer in question lives a long way away and I have no money
left to buy her a ticket.

2: Another singer, with an equally fabulous voice, came an equally long way
to sing his parts, and horror of horrors, at a key moment I didn't notice
that just one single word was clipped. How can I smooth out the distortion
of this note? If I had a steady hand I could try to "draw" it in Soundforge,
but the timbre of the voice is lost again, and the word sounds artificial. I
would hate to cut out the phrase in question because of this, it is
fabulously sung, I feel really silly not to have noticed at the time.

If anybody gives me one of those pompous "well, that proves the importance
of being careful at the outset" answers, please don't waste your time... I'm
already aware that I have made a mistake! Same thing goes for recommending
compressors / limiters for vocals, that is not what I am after.

I would really welcome any suggestions for getting round these little
problems, it would be a great help.

[Steve Layton]

Post by Hellish Knobend
I am soon to mix an album that will be out in February/ March, and have two
niggling little problems that maybe you could help me with.

You mention Soundforge, so I assume that's what you're using? My own
experience is with Cooledit (now Adobe Audition), but the principles should

Post by Hellish Knobend
1: I forgot to turn off the air ventilation in the studio before recording
one of the lead vocals. In the quieter passages of the song in question the
hiss is a little flagrant. I have done the obvious things, like
systematically cutting out anything that is not sung, and trying to equalise
with various anti noise plug-ins. But the result of cutting around the
vocals is that the hiss becomes even more apparent because you notice it
stopping and starting all the time, and the plug-ins
eat away too much at the timbre of my vocalist's beautiful voice. (maybe
there is a good one I don't know yet...?) I can not do the vocals again
because the singer in question lives a long way away and I have no money
left to buy her a ticket.

You don't mention which plug-ins you tried, but the most effective thing for
this is a good noise reduction module, not simply filtering (and of course
I'm assuming that you recorded the vocal on it's own isolated track). You
generally need one second of the recording that has no singing, only the
ambient sound; if you don't have that second, work with whatever you can
find in there. From there, you can begin to manually play with the settings:
tiny changes in things like the percent of noise masking introduced, the
shape of the noise curve, the degree of smoothness in transitions,
thresholds, etc... These can make a big difference in getting a usable
solution. Try dozens of changes on a short passage; it's easy and takes very
little time, and you can always undo it. You might be able to make that
ambient sound practically disappear, though sometimes the only realistic
goal is to find the maximal balance between the reduction and no artifacts
in the vocal sound.

Post by Hellish Knobend
2: Another singer, with an equally fabulous voice, came an equally long way
to sing his parts, and horror of horrors, at a key moment I didn't notice
that just one single word was clipped. How can I smooth out the distortion
of this note? If I had a steady hand I could try to "draw" it in Soundforge,
but the timbre of the voice is lost again, and the word sounds artificial. I
would hate to cut out the phrase in question because of this, it is
fabulously sung, I feel really silly not to have noticed at the time.

Again, you don't quite mention enough information, like just how *long* that
word is ("the", or "WHOOOOOAAAAA..."?), or how much of a clip there is. One
or two clicks or pops? Actual distortion? If it's the click or pop variety,
"dragging" the waveform back into shape can be the most effective thing (on
the waveform you'll see these are nothing more than "points" of the wave
that reach the maximum and then "flip" to the opposite side). Usually the
part of the wave affected by each clipping is actually tiny, no more than 5
to 20 samples. The point is to zoom in and fix the absolute minimum that
needs fixing. That's generally so small that you're dealing with only a
couple wave cycles, and can back off the level and reshape the wave pretty
quickly, leaving no audible trace of the problem, or what you did. Even if
the clipping "event" has a number of individual clips, the time and effort
spent is very little, especially for the result.

[Michael J. Anthony]

In article <FbmdnT9m8r7K6y_cRVn-***@speakeasy.net>, ***@speakeasy.net
says...

Post by Steve Layton
If it's the click or pop variety,
"dragging" the waveform back into shape can be the most effective thing (on
the waveform you'll see these are nothing more than "points" of the wave
that reach the maximum and then "flip" to the opposite side).

Sometimes I mask a blemish by isolating as much of the good syllable
that's available, and time stretching it over the bad part. In CEP it
works down to about a 110% time stretch without artefact.

[amnesiac jimmy]

To get rid of the fan noise, use an EQ plugin if you got one!!! and
isolate exactly what frequency the fan is at. Do it by exaggerating
the frequencies as you go through them till you fid where it is really
annoying. When you got that freq, cut it with a very small range and
see if it helps. Once the voice is in the mix it might not notice too
much....hth

Dave

[j***@aol.com]

I won't get into a debate of whether to hire a professional and his
tools or not. Just be prepared to live with your results or you will
end up in a "rubber room" as [David Sherman] states. Who knows after
all the work you put into it, you may also see the value of getting
some extra hardware to make recording in the future more reliable and
fun. It sure has for me.

1.
Do not dwell on ordinary background noise, hiss or humming too much
during silence. As the example by [Lynn] explains clearly, it is more
important to avoid any 'breathing' during silence by leaving the sound
as is, or removing only 6db to 12db of noise. As always, you can safely
remove 30db of noise at specific annoying frequencies with a dip, notch
or noise filter plug-in, but only for those frequencies. If you want to
remove even more hiss from all frequencies, then trick audiences with a
more pleasant effect that simulates a reverb. Use a slow release and
fast attack during the silence by running the audio through a
noise-gate plug-in. Gradually reduce hissing during silence at a rate
of 12db per 1 sec to a maximum of 50db (like a reverb), and immediately
restore the original sound before singing starts within 50 msec.

Do not dwell on ordinary background noise, hiss or humming too much
during singing. As mentioned earlier, an audience automatically tunes
out background noise during singing and would be more annoyed if entire
portions of a song sounded artificial with noise reduction. The noise
reduction algorithm merely helps reduce volume of certain frequencies.
Since your singer most likely is singing in the same frequency range as
the hiss, then the hiss would not be reduced much. Forcing it to be
reduced makes it more artificial.

2.
As everyone already explained clearly, go ahead and re-record damaged
audio with anything you can find to trick the audience. The audience
will love a nice crisp clear trick more than a lingering distortion.
Since you mentioned audio was clipped in the software, you may try
this. Redrawing is inaccurate and tedious, so use the soundforge
plug-in, clip peak restoration and the option for 'No attenuation,
limit clips'. If it does not round off clipped areas, then you can
trick the software by first maximizing the volume of the smaller
selection that is clipping so that it passes 0db. Then run the clip
peak restoration.

The idea from [Michael J. Anthony] is also okay to stretch audio and
add reverb or echo effects over damaged portions. First reduce the
volume of the damaged portion so that it is not so prominant anymore.
My idea to use noiseprint subtraction (opposite of filter) is also okay
to filter bad audio with the same noiseprint as related good audio.
Good luck.
Joseph Balogh

[Hellish Knobend]

Post by j***@aol.com
I won't get into a debate of whether to hire a professional and his
tools or not. Just be prepared to live with your results or you will
end up in a "rubber room" as [David Sherman] states. Who knows after
all the work you put into it, you may also see the value of getting
some extra hardware to make recording in the future more reliable and
fun. It sure has for me.
1.
Do not dwell on ordinary background noise, hiss or humming too much
during silence. As the example by [Lynn] explains clearly, it is more
important to avoid any 'breathing' during silence by leaving the sound
as is, or removing only 6db to 12db of noise. As always, you can safely
remove 30db of noise at specific annoying frequencies with a dip, notch
or noise filter plug-in, but only for those frequencies. If you want to
remove even more hiss from all frequencies, then trick audiences with a
more pleasant effect that simulates a reverb. Use a slow release and
fast attack during the silence by running the audio through a
noise-gate plug-in. Gradually reduce hissing during silence at a rate
of 12db per 1 sec to a maximum of 50db (like a reverb), and immediately
restore the original sound before singing starts within 50 msec.
Do not dwell on ordinary background noise, hiss or humming too much
during singing. As mentioned earlier, an audience automatically tunes
out background noise during singing and would be more annoyed if entire
portions of a song sounded artificial with noise reduction. The noise
reduction algorithm merely helps reduce volume of certain frequencies.
Since your singer most likely is singing in the same frequency range as
the hiss, then the hiss would not be reduced much. Forcing it to be
reduced makes it more artificial.
2.
As everyone already explained clearly, go ahead and re-record damaged
audio with anything you can find to trick the audience. The audience
will love a nice crisp clear trick more than a lingering distortion.
Since you mentioned audio was clipped in the software, you may try
this. Redrawing is inaccurate and tedious, so use the soundforge
plug-in, clip peak restoration and the option for 'No attenuation,
limit clips'. If it does not round off clipped areas, then you can
trick the software by first maximizing the volume of the smaller
selection that is clipping so that it passes 0db. Then run the clip
peak restoration.
The idea from [Michael J. Anthony] is also okay to stretch audio and
add reverb or echo effects over damaged portions. First reduce the
volume of the damaged portion so that it is not so prominant anymore.
My idea to use noiseprint subtraction (opposite of filter) is also okay
to filter bad audio with the same noiseprint as related good audio.
Good luck.
Joseph Balogh

Sound advice indeed, I will use your advice for the effective use of gates.
Sounds like a solution to avoid the hiss - stop -hiss - stop thing.

And for the sound forge plug-in too, thanks a lot, I will look into that.
Great tips.

I too liked [Michael J. Anthony] 's suggestion for time stretching. But
unfortunately I do not have a cleaner section big enough to work on.

Quick question, if you have a minute. I am very interested in looking into
the idea of noiseprint substraction. But what plug-ins can I use or
configure to perform this task?

All the best

Ben

[Michael J. Anthony]

First reduce the volume of the damaged portion
so that it is not so prominant anymore.

Exactly. A lot of the ideas proposed here can be summed up by saying: if
you can't fix it, go to damage control. Mask the sonofabitch as best you
can and move on. Reduce the amplitude where the problem is worst is easy
and it's free. A couple of dB won't be missed by the listener, but you've
reduced the volume of the blemish by nearly half. Even bring up another
instrument to distract the ear. If it's a transient, have it coincide
with a drum hit somewhere. The only caveat is if it's an important word,
you'll still want the audience to hear it.

I also echo what Lynn said about finding the same word somewhere else in
the song. If it's in the chorus, you've got it made.

[Lynn]

Post by Hellish Knobend
I am soon to mix an album that will be out in February/ March, and have two
niggling little problems that maybe you could help me with.
1: I forgot to turn off the air ventilation in the studio before recording
one of the lead vocals. In the quieter passages of the song in question the
hiss is a little flagrant. I have done the obvious things, like
systematically cutting out anything that is not sung, and trying to equalise
with various anti noise plug-ins. But the result of cutting around the
vocals is that the hiss becomes even more apparent because you notice it
stopping and starting all the time, and the plug-ins
eat away too much at the timbre of my vocalist's beautiful voice. (maybe
there is a good one I don't know yet...?) I can not do the vocals again
because the singer in question lives a long way away and I have no money
left to buy her a ticket.

Although I haven't had the cash to spare on one of those professional noise
reduction programs mentioned in a previous post, I have played around with a
demo of one and, like yourself, decided in the end that the timbre of the
vocal suffered too much for it to be of use. It is possible though, that
given the time to get fully acquainted with the thing, I may have got much
better results.

I am a bit of a perfectionist, but I usually end up living with my mistakes.
Overall I have the philosophy that music these days is getting too perfect
anyway. All the character of a performance (including the blemishes) are
being wiped out by the technology. Did the Doors worry when their Hammond
was out of tune? No...they released the record anyway and had a big hit with
it. Did the Stones worry when their songs speeded up? No... it added to the
excitement of the music. Did the listeners worry when their records got
scratched and warped? Not really... They still got the same enjoyment from
the music.

OK, so you're still unconvinced, huh?

When you're very close to the sound of the recording, as we are in this
business, it is often difficult not to notice the "mistakes", but over time,
the ear automatically blocks out background noise until it's barely
noticeable. The average listener will not notice something like a background
hiss, unless it suddenly leaps out at them. Gating the vocal track is fine
if there are a lot of other sounds going on, but if it is a quiet passage it
will suddenly become obvious that an extra sound has been "switched on or
off" To compensate for this I will only introduce a light gate of say, a 6db
reduction and use a slow attack and decay time so that it doesn't seem
obvious. Whe you go back and listen to the track again in 6 months time,
you'll wonder what all the fuss was about! When someone buys a record, they
buy it because they like it, warts and all! Something like a background
hiss, will not put someone off buying a song they like (unless they are a
hi-fi buff, in which case they are not buying the "music", but the "sound")

A *second option would be to get the singer to re-record the track. In these
days of internet collaboration, distance is no object. You could get her to
go to a studio local to her and they can email you the track or upload it to
a server where you can retrieve it. Many of the people on my recordings,
I've never even met! They live in other corners of the Globe! If she lived
near me, I would do it for you!

Post by Hellish Knobend
2: Another singer, with an equally fabulous voice, came an equally long way
to sing his parts, and horror of horrors, at a key moment I didn't notice
that just one single word was clipped. How can I smooth out the distortion
of this note? If I had a steady hand I could try to "draw" it in Soundforge,
but the timbre of the voice is lost again, and the word sounds artificial. I
would hate to cut out the phrase in question because of this, it is
fabulously sung, I feel really silly not to have noticed at the time.

I assume you have checked the whole track to see if he sings the same word
anywhere else? Most times I find I can just swap it with a word from another
part of the song. I use Logic as my recording program and use their built-in
wave editor. So far, I have not been successful in fixing clipping by
redrawing the wave. It usually ends up sounding just as bad as the original
problem. Though from reading the response from a previous post, It seems
there may be easier ways to do this in other wave editors.

Without seeing the extent of your problem and the word or portion of the
song it relates to, I can't really make any further suggestions, other than
there are other solutions! These may include fading out the word and adding
an effect, such as an echo, to mask the problem.

Alternatively, goto the *second option, above!

Most of all ... DON'T PANIC! It's only music, and to err is human!

[Hellish Knobend]

Post by Hellish Knobend

Post by Hellish Knobend
I am soon to mix an album that will be out in February/ March, and have

two

Post by Hellish Knobend
niggling little problems that maybe you could help me with.
1: I forgot to turn off the air ventilation in the studio before recording
one of the lead vocals. In the quieter passages of the song in question

the

Post by Hellish Knobend
hiss is a little flagrant. I have done the obvious things, like
systematically cutting out anything that is not sung, and trying to

equalise

Post by Hellish Knobend
with various anti noise plug-ins. But the result of cutting around the
vocals is that the hiss becomes even more apparent because you notice it
stopping and starting all the time, and the plug-ins
eat away too much at the timbre of my vocalist's beautiful voice. (maybe
there is a good one I don't know yet...?) I can not do the vocals again
because the singer in question lives a long way away and I have no money
left to buy her a ticket.

Although I haven't had the cash to spare on one of those professional noise
reduction programs mentioned in a previous post, I have played around with a
demo of one and, like yourself, decided in the end that the timbre of the
vocal suffered too much for it to be of use. It is possible though, that
given the time to get fully acquainted with the thing, I may have got much
better results.
I am a bit of a perfectionist, but I usually end up living with my mistakes.
Overall I have the philosophy that music these days is getting too perfect
anyway. All the character of a performance (including the blemishes) are
being wiped out by the technology. Did the Doors worry when their Hammond
was out of tune? No...they released the record anyway and had a big hit with
it. Did the Stones worry when their songs speeded up? No... it added to the
excitement of the music. Did the listeners worry when their records got
scratched and warped? Not really... They still got the same enjoyment from
the music.
OK, so you're still unconvinced, huh?
When you're very close to the sound of the recording, as we are in this
business, it is often difficult not to notice the "mistakes", but over time,
the ear automatically blocks out background noise until it's barely
noticeable. The average listener will not notice something like a background
hiss, unless it suddenly leaps out at them. Gating the vocal track is fine
if there are a lot of other sounds going on, but if it is a quiet passage it
will suddenly become obvious that an extra sound has been "switched on or
off" To compensate for this I will only introduce a light gate of say, a 6db
reduction and use a slow attack and decay time so that it doesn't seem
obvious. Whe you go back and listen to the track again in 6 months time,
you'll wonder what all the fuss was about! When someone buys a record, they
buy it because they like it, warts and all! Something like a background
hiss, will not put someone off buying a song they like (unless they are a
hi-fi buff, in which case they are not buying the "music", but the "sound")
A *second option would be to get the singer to re-record the track. In these
days of internet collaboration, distance is no object. You could get her to
go to a studio local to her and they can email you the track or upload it to
a server where you can retrieve it. Many of the people on my recordings,
I've never even met! They live in other corners of the Globe! If she lived
near me, I would do it for you!

Post by Hellish Knobend
2: Another singer, with an equally fabulous voice, came an equally long

way

Post by Hellish Knobend
to sing his parts, and horror of horrors, at a key moment I didn't notice
that just one single word was clipped. How can I smooth out the distortion
of this note? If I had a steady hand I could try to "draw" it in

Soundforge,

Post by Hellish Knobend
but the timbre of the voice is lost again, and the word sounds

artificial.

Post by Hellish Knobend
I

Post by Hellish Knobend
would hate to cut out the phrase in question because of this, it is
fabulously sung, I feel really silly not to have noticed at the time.

I assume you have checked the whole track to see if he sings the same word
anywhere else? Most times I find I can just swap it with a word from another
part of the song. I use Logic as my recording program and use their built-in
wave editor. So far, I have not been successful in fixing clipping by
redrawing the wave. It usually ends up sounding just as bad as the original
problem. Though from reading the response from a previous post, It seems
there may be easier ways to do this in other wave editors.
Without seeing the extent of your problem and the word or portion of the
song it relates to, I can't really make any further suggestions, other than
there are other solutions! These may include fading out the word and adding
an effect, such as an echo, to mask the problem.
Alternatively, goto the *second option, above!
Most of all ... DON'T PANIC! It's only music, and to err is human!
--
Lynn
==============

Yes, yes, yes and yes. I loved every word of what you wrote, it is
straight-forward good sense and fun, and you are absolutely right. If ever
we run into each other at a crossroads in life I'm sure we would be great
friends.

Your wonderful answer to my queries has inspired me to stop seeking
digital-age perfection and to worry about what is really important. Being
human and conveying feelings. So thank you so much again.

[Lynn]

"Hellish Knobend" <***@mynob.com> wrote in message news:41b372e1$0$3412$***@news.wanadoo.fr...

< snip >

Post by Hellish Knobend
Yes, yes, yes and yes. I loved every word of what you wrote, it is
straight-forward good sense and fun, and you are absolutely right. If ever
we run into each other at a crossroads in life I'm sure we would be great
friends.
Your wonderful answer to my queries has inspired me to stop seeking
digital-age perfection and to worry about what is really important. Being
human and conveying feelings. So thank you so much again.

Thankyou. I'm so pleased to have inspired you. A few more people like us and
we can get music back to the way it should be, a "communication device", not
a "shiny package".

Story: My main collaborator recorded a song a while back, but the lead
guitar track had a real bad bum note. Guess what?, I refused to let him
correct it! Reason: The song is about how tired he is after a heavy day's
work and I thought the bad note conveyed that feeling much better than the
right note could! Sometimes, a bad performance is the best performance!

[David Sherman]

Post by Hellish Knobend
If anybody gives me one of those pompous "well, that proves the importance
of being careful at the outset" answers, please don't waste your time... I'm
already aware that I have made a mistake!

Okay so we'll move on.

I won't give you a nyaa-nyaa post, but I will point out that an experienced
engineer probably wouldn't have made these mistakes.

You can't be expected to pay attention to every small detail - you're
producing an album. That's a huge undertaking. This is why you hire
specialists - because they will. Not that you're not capable, but a person
who is hired only to engineer will do just that. You spent money on the
singers. Now spend money consulting with a professional engineer and see if
they can help you with your product.

Post by Hellish Knobend
I am soon to mix an album that will be out in February/ March, and have two
niggling little problems that maybe you could help me with.

Are you under contract? You're spending your own money, so why the hard
deadline? If you can't live with your recording, push the release date back
until the coffers are full enough to rerecord the vocal tracks.

Post by Hellish Knobend
1: I forgot to turn off the air ventilation in the studio before recording
one of the lead vocals. In the quieter passages of the song in question the
hiss is a little flagrant.

Two things:

1. since you have been living with this track for so long you might be
getting a little fixated on the extra noise. Play your track for a pro with
label mixing experience. (If you're in the NYC area I'll give you some
names.) Maybe it's not as bad as you think. Or maybe the solution is not
as complex for someone who does this for a living. Maybe they can recommend
a plugin that will help, or for a nominal fee, perhaps you can hire them to
run it through their system with the plygin that's needed.

The people here can recommend solutions until the cows some home - which is
fine. But it's time to take your track to a pro.

2. older guys like myself spent years living with tape hiss. I never
minded tape hiss, in fact I sort of like it! If it sounds like tape hiss
maybe the route to take is to talk to an older engineer to see how they
dealt with tape hiss. The greatest recordings of the 70's and 80's were all
recorded on tape - and tape no matter who sophisticated a system - had hiss.
Everyone had to deal with it.

But my advice is the same: take your track to a pro.

Post by Hellish Knobend
2: Another singer, with an equally fabulous voice, came an equally long way
to sing his parts, and horror of horrors, at a key moment I didn't notice
that just one single word was clipped. How can I smooth out the distortion
of this note?

Think about hiring a singer to punch that one note. It's done all the time.

War story time:

Years ago I worked on the jingle sessions for the Folger's Coffee account.
The ad agency hired Sheena Easton to sing the vocals on the commercials and
no sooner had she set foot in the studio that everyone realized that her
crazy Scottish (?) accent prevented her from being able to pronounce the
name of the product correctly. It always came out sounding like "Foleyers."
Unbelievable! You'd think for all the money the client was spending, this
is one detail someone might have checked!

After the star sang the track, we hired a *pro* studio singer to come in and
punch in all the product names, and that was that! The pro was able to
imitate Sheena Easton's sound, sang along with the track and we punched all
the product names. Again, with a pro engineer, a pro singer the final
product was seamless. You can probably do the same with this one note.
It's only one note - who's going to notice? If you don't advertise it,
nobody will know!

Once again, I'm not doing a told-you-so, but I can't over emphasize the
value of hiring experienced pros to work for/with you. Details like this -
that will eventually put you in a rubber room - will be taken care of.
Mistakes always happen, but delegating responsibility for such a big project
isn't a bad idea.

[Hellish Knobend]

Post by David Sherman

Post by Hellish Knobend
If anybody gives me one of those pompous "well, that proves the importance
of being careful at the outset" answers, please don't waste your time... I'm
already aware that I have made a mistake!

Okay so we'll move on.
I won't give you a nyaa-nyaa post, but I will point out that an experienced
engineer probably wouldn't have made these mistakes.
You can't be expected to pay attention to every small detail - you're
producing an album. That's a huge undertaking. This is why you hire
specialists - because they will. Not that you're not capable, but a person
who is hired only to engineer will do just that. You spent money on the
singers. Now spend money consulting with a professional engineer and see if
they can help you with your product.

Post by Hellish Knobend
I am soon to mix an album that will be out in February/ March, and have two
niggling little problems that maybe you could help me with.

Are you under contract? You're spending your own money, so why the hard
deadline? If you can't live with your recording, push the release date back
until the coffers are full enough to rerecord the vocal tracks.

Post by Hellish Knobend
1: I forgot to turn off the air ventilation in the studio before recording
one of the lead vocals. In the quieter passages of the song in question the
hiss is a little flagrant.

1. since you have been living with this track for so long you might be
getting a little fixated on the extra noise. Play your track for a pro with
label mixing experience. (If you're in the NYC area I'll give you some
names.) Maybe it's not as bad as you think. Or maybe the solution is not
as complex for someone who does this for a living. Maybe they can recommend
a plugin that will help, or for a nominal fee, perhaps you can hire them to
run it through their system with the plygin that's needed.
The people here can recommend solutions until the cows some home - which is
fine. But it's time to take your track to a pro.
2. older guys like myself spent years living with tape hiss. I never
minded tape hiss, in fact I sort of like it! If it sounds like tape hiss
maybe the route to take is to talk to an older engineer to see how they
dealt with tape hiss. The greatest recordings of the 70's and 80's were all
recorded on tape - and tape no matter who sophisticated a system - had hiss.
Everyone had to deal with it.
But my advice is the same: take your track to a pro.

Post by Hellish Knobend
2: Another singer, with an equally fabulous voice, came an equally long way
to sing his parts, and horror of horrors, at a key moment I didn't notice
that just one single word was clipped. How can I smooth out the distortion
of this note?

Think about hiring a singer to punch that one note. It's done all the time.
Years ago I worked on the jingle sessions for the Folger's Coffee account.
The ad agency hired Sheena Easton to sing the vocals on the commercials and
no sooner had she set foot in the studio that everyone realized that her
crazy Scottish (?) accent prevented her from being able to pronounce the
name of the product correctly. It always came out sounding like "Foleyers."
Unbelievable! You'd think for all the money the client was spending, this
is one detail someone might have checked!
After the star sang the track, we hired a *pro* studio singer to come in and
punch in all the product names, and that was that! The pro was able to
imitate Sheena Easton's sound, sang along with the track and we punched all
the product names. Again, with a pro engineer, a pro singer the final
product was seamless. You can probably do the same with this one note.
It's only one note - who's going to notice? If you don't advertise it,
nobody will know!
Once again, I'm not doing a told-you-so, but I can't over emphasize the
value of hiring experienced pros to work for/with you. Details like this -
that will eventually put you in a rubber room - will be taken care of.
Mistakes always happen, but delegating responsibility for such a big project
isn't a bad idea.

David

Well, firstly thank you very much for taking time to write such a complete
answer to my queries. I found your words friendly and well-meaning, and your
tone respectful. I very much appreciate the effort even though your
suggestions are not useful to me.

I don't feel like writing a long and complex list of reasons why this is the
case, but there is a certain amount of chaff I need to blow off the grain of
my thoughts, so to speak, before I can get on with the important task of
eating my pork chops and potatoes. (with ice cream as dessert)

Your words feel like a tenacious piece of grit between my teeth, and if I
don't answer you, it would be for the wrong reasons, ie not wanting to hear
your advice again, because I feel you would only write more of the same. I'm
sorry for what I have just said if this is not the case.

We seem to be living in opposite corners of the universe where music
production is concerned. I consider it to be a matter of the heart,
something I do in order to survive, something I do with love and
desperation. You throw about words like "pro" and "contract" as if they are
of some importance, your words seem senseless to me, all "sound and fury,
signifying nothing." (Macbeth, paraphrased)
The word "pro" for example. You use it in a mystifying god-like way, "go to
a pro, the big boys can rescue you", or whatever, whereas the word simply
refers to somebody who makes a living from music. Which is the case for me
too. I can "go to a pro" in my bath, or while buying popcorn, or while doing
the dishes, because I would simply have to talk to myself.

(Although I am not claiming to misunderstand your words, I can see what you
meant to say. You were talking about status and prestige, big budgets and
cold, feelingless hands turning expensive buttons, healing the wounds in my
production with no joy and no involvement, in the time it takes for me to
finish this sentence. Or less, because I type like a drunk baboon)

I basically make music with all my heart, music that tells the story of
people I meet, music that I give every hour of every day to making. It is a
vital part of who I am. Throwing about the words "pro" and "contract" would
feel like a meaningless stain on what I do. Signifying nothing.
I abhor the word "pro" when it refers to anything to do with music. It is a
hollow, cold word, and I have always battled with my colleagues to strike a
line through it in their lists of musical vocabulary. Music has nothing to
do with money, budget or status. It is an abstract world of thoughts,
feelings and humanism.

You suggest that I throw money about to solve my problem. You talk of
deadlines and contracts. I have chosen to produce my album independently
with no money at all changing hands. This is because of my vision of what I
want my music to be about and what real artistic collaborations mean to me
personally. (Please don't think I'm imposing this view on others, i realize
it is very personal.) I have myself played piano in studios for Joe Bloggs
or John Smith for a fat check at the end of the day, but I have left that
side of things on the slow burner in order to try to bring my own, different
dream of music to life. Everybody who contributes to the album has done so
free of charge because they believe in the project, and because they want to
be part of it. They, as I do, find music to be an affair of the heart. They
will recieve money for CD sales, of course, but not a penny before. The
studio time has also been offered to me in the same way because the owner of
the studio wants to be associated with the project, simply because he wants
it to work. He just likes the music.
The only contract there is is that concerning distribution. That has nothing
to do with the production, I am 100% producer of my own music, and it is all
happening for 0.00 Euros, pounds, dollars, or whatever. That is what my
dream was, and that is what is happening.


As for suggestiong that I have another singer sing the one note that has
clipped, again it is a matter of throwing money about, and it is in my book
a empty-shelled heartless suggestion I would never ever consider doing such
a thing, however efficient it may be, because what I do springs from
friendship and integrity not from cheating and trickery. I would be
devastated to replace a single note of one of the singers involved because I
simply could not stand it to be sung by anybody else. It would be a dirty
spillage in our creation. I chose them, they chose me, no money is involved,
only thirst for adventure and musical friendships.

The reason there is magic in this production is all I have said above. The
whole philosophy of what we have done is this magic.

But, as I said at the beginning of my message, I did all the same gratefully
recieve your suggestions because I am absolutely certain that they stem from
a wish to help me. Which makes you a collaborator in our magic world too
:-)

Ben

[David Sherman]

[....]
Your words feel like a tenacious piece of grit between my teeth, and if I
don't answer you, it would be for the wrong reasons, ie not wanting to hear
your advice again, because I feel you would only write more of the same. I'm
sorry for what I have just said if this is not the case.

I appreciate that. Your tone was similarly firm but respectful. However
looking over what I just replied, I guess I did just write more of the same!
Read on.

We seem to be living in opposite corners of the universe where music
production is concerned. I consider it to be a matter of the heart,
something I do in order to survive, something I do with love and
desperation. You throw about words like "pro" and "contract" as if they are
of some importance, your words seem senseless to me, all "sound and fury,
signifying nothing." (Macbeth, paraphrased)

I'm obviously not going to change your mind.

Maybe if I changed the word "pro" for "someone who has a lot of experience -
paid or unpaid - in the type of project you're doing," would that change
anything?

(Although I am not claiming to misunderstand your words, I can see what you
meant to say. You were talking about status and prestige, big budgets and
cold, feelingless hands turning expensive buttons, healing the wounds in my
production with no joy and no involvement, in the time it takes for me to
finish this sentence. Or less, because I type like a drunk baboon)

Okay, okay, I get it. You think that the prefix "pro" is a synonym for
heartless, uncaring, aloof, and any number of other negative connotations.

Here's my point put on a personal level:

I'm a composer. I feel I'm a pretty good composer. I'll do anything it
takes to get the music done. I'll write or arrange and record live tracks,
use MIDI, samples, loops, Acid, Reason, Digital Performer, Protools,
anything.

But I'm a "notes" guy. My training is in composition. I'm not an "audio"
guy. I know when things sound the way I want them to sound, but I don't
always know how achieve it. Once the notes are where I want them I have to
acknowledge that I don't have the "chops" to do the music justice. If I
want the best track, I need help. And I don't seek that help from a baboon
who cares deeply for my project - that does me no good. I want the guy with
the most experience and the best demo reel. He won't be cold and heartless
- I won't let him. Do you think that I'd just hand off my track to someone
and tell him that I'll see him once he's finished? No, he won't move a
fader without my knowledge - or my approval. At the same time - I
desperately want his input. After all, he's the audio expert, that's why I
need him. If he tells me that a particular reverb isn't working to his ear,
or the compression on the vocal is wrong, I take what he says very
seriously. But the final decision is always mine.

So my question to you would be: how is my music better served? By taking
everything into my own hands? Or by contacting a trusted associate with a
ton of experience (with me and many others) to help me finalize my project?
What gives me the best CD that people are going to pop into their players?

Your charge that music done professionally has no heart is just nonsense
and, respectfully, something you really should try to get over.

I basically make music with all my heart, music that tells the story of
people I meet, music that I give every hour of every day to making. It is a
vital part of who I am. Throwing about the words "pro" and "contract" would
feel like a meaningless stain on what I do. Signifying nothing.
I abhor the word "pro" when it refers to anything to do with music. It is a
hollow, cold word, and I have always battled with my colleagues to strike a
line through it in their lists of musical vocabulary. Music has nothing to
do with money, budget or status. It is an abstract world of thoughts,
feelings and humanism.

Okay, lets' stay on this tack for a second. Let's say that your CD is
completed to your satisfaction, and suddenly Mirimax Films wants to put one
of your tracks in a feature film. That can interpret into a lot of money.
Does that suddenly cheapen your music? Does that suddenly make your music
"cold" and "unfeeling" because you just got a hefty check for it?

Suppose Mirimax contacted you prior to the completion of your CD and asked
if you could include a track of a certain style or on a certain topic that
they can include in their film. If you did accept the gig, would you create
that music in a cold, unfeeling and magicless way? Or would you pour your
heart into the project like you've done on everything else?

I'll also point out to you that paying the singers transportation (and I
assume lodging) is a form of payment. There is an agreement you made - a
<gasp> contract! Your contract was the agreement that you wold pay for
transportation in exchange for their work as a singer.

Call it what you want, but that's a contract!

Are these singers so in love with your project that they would have spent
their own money to get to your studio? I don't think so. Otherwise they
would be back on the plane to come and fix the track. So, in essence, you
paid them - "contracted" them for their service.

Nothing so terrible about that!

But yet you feel they did a magical session for you. Could it be that magic
can be made in the presence of a payment too?

You suggest that I throw money about to solve my problem. You talk of
deadlines and contracts. I have chosen to produce my album independently
with no money at all changing hands. This is because of my vision of what I
want my music to be about and what real artistic collaborations mean to me
personally. (Please don't think I'm imposing this view on others, i realize
it is very personal.)

Okay, I'll ask again: What's your rush to release the album? The only time
I used the word "contract" was to ask you if you were under CONTRACT to
finish your project at a certain time. What's so bad about that? You seem
to be in a rush to finish this project. Why? Why not take your time and
fix the problem the way you feel it should be fixed, and to hell with
deadlines? It's self imposed anyway.

Is there a reason you have to absolutely have to have this project done by
the spring? What are you not telling us?

No, don't throw money at the problem, spend it wisely and frugally.

What I don't think you understand is that I feel paying someone for their
work is a sincere form of flattery. I'm saying, "I'm not making any money,
but that doesn't mean you shouldn't." I'm saying, "I value your work so
much that I'm going to try to pay you anything I can."

Someone with a lot of experience, knowing that you're paying him our of your
own pocket, will actually work harder and be more conscientious simply
because he understands how much you value his expertise.

Also, if I have my heart set on having someone like Branford Marsallis to
play on my project, it's easier to get him if I pay. Sure I can try to
convince him to work with me on my project for the love of it, and he just
might do it. But I assure you, my recording sessions with him will always
get bumped for paying gigs and his own projects. It could take the better
part of a year to get him in the studio.

There are dozens of sax players I can contact, but I had my heart set on
Branford. Also, Branford on my CD will certainly help sales which will help
me pay everyone else who works on the CD a lot better (don't tell me you're
not interested in sales, you're looking for a distributor!)

So what Should I do in your part of the universe? Get someone to work for
free who I didn't really want in the first place? Wait until Branford gives
me an hour or two of his time? Or pay the guy to assure he'll show up on
the day that I need him, and give me the time I need to record him properly?

[....]
The only contract there is is that concerning distribution. That has nothing
to do with the production, I am 100% producer of my own music, and it is all
happening for 0.00 Euros, pounds, dollars, or whatever. That is what my
dream was, and that is what is happening.

Aha! So you're not doing everything yourself. You need to make a deal with
a distributor. Great! Your logic would dictate that you do the
distribution yourself too. To strike a deal - sign a contract, in reality -
with a distributor is not cold and uncaring, but hiring an engineer is. Do
you see the problem I'm having here?

As for suggestiong that I have another singer sing the one note that has
clipped, again it is a matter of throwing money about, and it is in my book
a empty-shelled heartless suggestion I would never ever consider doing such
a thing, however efficient it may be, because what I do springs from
friendship and integrity not from cheating and trickery. I would be
devastated to replace a single note of one of the singers involved because I
simply could not stand it to be sung by anybody else. It would be a dirty
spillage in our creation. I chose them, they chose me, no money is involved,
only thirst for adventure and musical friendships.

This is all fine. But look where it got you: in a rush to fix a track that
is unusable.

Okay, how about this: do you have a previous take that you can "borrow"
that one note? That would be fix the problem without "cheating." Or are
you trying to use only one take performed all the say through? Sometimes
people - yes, serious artists do this all the time - make composite tracks
of several takes of vocals. Maybe that would work for you.

The reason there is magic in this production is all I have said above. The
whole philosophy of what we have done is this magic.
But, as I said at the beginning of my message, I did all the same gratefully
recieve your suggestions because I am absolutely certain that they stem from
a wish to help me. Which makes you a collaborator in our magic world too

I appreciate it Ben. I really do.

[Matthew Fields]

Just a follow-up on David's posting.

My music and my music-making are wayyyyy over in the other end of the
business from David's. It'd be hard to find two composers who are more
dissimilar.

And I've consistently had the experience of performers telling me that
my notes are "unplayable as written", even when I myself can play them.

But you know what? Good hired players never say that, they just say
"am I playing it in the right spirit?" And once a hot recorded performance
of a piece is published, the chorus of "it's unplayable" is suddenly
replaced by "Can I get a copy of that? I want to program it next March."

For my most recent recording, I scrimped and saved and cajolled and
contracted and postponed hopes of owning a house, driving a decent
car, and upgrading my computer. I hired the best players around, the
best conductor, the best recording engineer, the best producer, and
the best editing group. And I worked closely with them. Most of the
players I hired through a contracting agent who doubled as their union
steward, payroll manager, and contact point before and after the
sessions--I paid him the same as a player, as he brought a knowledge
of who to ire and how to entice them to do the job (he also has gigs
as a percussionist, profesor, and swing choir leader). The conductor
mastered 352 pages of fine-print score, and each player mastered about
50 pages of individual part. Some of the players took extra measures
to drop off their kids with friends before school so they could arrive
and warm up on their instruments and practice their parts one more
time before each session. The engineer, producer, conductor and I
worked closely with each other. At one point, repair guys mistakenly
started walking on the roof of the building and the recording engineer
left the rig recording, ran outside and yelled at them to stop, then
cell-phoned through a variety of bureaucrats to their foreman and got
their work rescheduled to after our sessions.
At the end of the sessions, some of the players asked me to sign
their parts. That was an incredibly gratifying feeling. The recording
engineer put something more in motion which may bring the recording
some notice in the right circles (I'm deliberately being cagey about
that).
I may never be able to afford to do things like that again, but
maybe I'll someday be able to get grants to help fund that sort of
project.
In sum, my experience has been right in line with David's, despite
the fact that he and I are from different musical worlds.

[j***@aol.com]

(Hellish Knobend)
... status and prestige, big budgets and cold, feelingless hands
turning expensive buttons, healing the wounds in my production
with no joy and no involvement.

Your definition of professionals is strange. You bought a computer,
microphone, software, etc. from big budget professionals which is okay
to help you edit audio. That sounds cold with no joy or involvement.
Maybe finding someone with a hobby to build the equipment is better so
we can keep the magic. In the end, music can be some money because you
indirectly buy stuff and help singers travel. Professionals like me can
also do it for the love of music and musical friendships to help
people, and I would like you to reconsider your point of view.

... not from cheating and trickery. I would be devastated
to replace a single note of one of the singers involved
because I simply could not stand it to be sung by anybody
else. It would be a dirty spillage in our creation.

Nice to meet you. You are a very nice person. Could we step back for a
second and consider the difference between 'mixing', 'stealing', and
'cheating'? From now on, you may see that 'mixing' is a more accurate
way to explain your situation and you do not need to feel so bad
anymore.

Cheating: You asked to fix the distortion and already accept cheating
and trickery so the audience does not hear your original creation.
Additionally, the equipment you used to record it, also physically
cheated the audience from hearing a good performance. Since you are now
'cheating', you might as well fix the rest of the song so the audience
does not hear obvious mistakes.

Stealing: I think what you really mean to say was not from 'stealing'.
Stealing a soloists fame and integrity by completely replacing what
they sing. But in this case, all you needed to do was have one note a
backup singer sings loudly. Reduce the volume of the soloist by 12db
and mix a backup singer over it to make it crystal clear again. Backup
singers always sing with a soloist and is never considered stealing,
just mixing to one track. As [Michael J. Anthony] noted, you can also
completely fade out and remove a bad word a singer sang and just leave
instrumentals in the background for a second.

Mixing: So now let's accept everything as mixing. Mixing one track of
the soloist with other singers and instruments. It is not considered
dirty spillage in your creation by taking multiple tracks of different
sounds and squeezing them into one track. If you still think that
mixing is considered cheating or stealing, then you have a problem and
all your singers would have to sing acapelo and monologues on the cds
with no editting from now on.

... magic in this production ...

Consider that the magic in the audience can be important too, and not
just the production. Additionally, the audience has no clue what
happened during production so the magic during production can be lost
and left with obvious distortion and problems. Wouldn't a singer be
much more embarassed to have you release a song with distortions and
annoying magic. I do not know of any performers that would be happy to
have an audience hear problems. Saving the ears of an audience is a
precious magical gift from any performer. I gained this knowledge from
my choir director and church singers (volunteers) who make the audience
happy because of a beautiful song, not a beautiful one-second note.

... thirst for adventure and musical friendships ...

If that could be more important than the audience, then you can safely
leave the audio as it is. Then next time, take advantage of the
situation and work experience you just learned to someday record better
so that both musical friendships and the audience can be happy. Not
only record better, but to record several takes of the performance so
you easily can copy and paste damaged audio without offending anyone by
accident.


Good luck and have fun.
Joseph Balogh

[j***@aol.com]

(Hellish Knobend)
... the idea of noiseprint substraction ...

This helps when your singer sings one longer note, and all of the
sudden coughing, page turning, clicking, banging, distortion or
whatever occurs. The plug-in is the soundforge noise reduction, in the
section noiseprint. First, select the portion of the long note that
sounds good and use the plug-in to capture the noiseprint. Second,
cancel and select the portion that sounds bad and use the plug-in to
apply the previously captured noise reduction characteristics. The
result is some noise outside of the good audio could be stripped or
deemphasized.

... liked [Michael J. Anthony] 's suggestion for
time stretching. But unfortunately I do not have
a cleaner section big enough to work on.

You do not need much to capture noise. But of course, you see the
results you are getting and only you know for sure if you are
successful.

Good luck and have fun.
Joseph Balogh

[j***@aol.com]

(Hellish Knobend)
... the idea of noiseprint substraction ...

This helps when your singer sings one longer note, and all of the
sudden coughing, page turning, clicking, banging, distortion or
whatever occurs. The plug-in is the soundforge noise reduction, in the
section noiseprint. First, select the portion of the long note that
sounds good and use the plug-in to capture the noiseprint. Second,
cancel and select the portion that sounds bad and use the plug-in to
apply the previously captured noise reduction characteristics. The
result is some noise outside of the good audio could be stripped or
deemphasized.

... liked [Michael J. Anthony] 's suggestion for
time stretching. But unfortunately I do not have
a cleaner section big enough to work on.

You do not need much to capture noise. But of course, you see the
results you are getting and only you know for sure if you are
successful.

Good luck and have fun.
Joseph Balogh

[David Sherman]

***@aol.com wrote on 12/6/04 1:26 PM:

[....]

A fine piece of Vulcan logic. Well done.

[j***@aol.com]

(Hellish Knobend)
... status and prestige, big budgets and cold, feelingless hands
turning expensive buttons, healing the wounds in my production
with no joy and no involvement.

Your definition of professionals is strange. You bought a computer,
microphone, software, etc. from big budget professionals which is okay
to help you edit audio. That sounds cold with no joy or involvement.
Maybe finding someone with a hobby to build the equipment is better so
we can keep the magic. In the end, music can be some money because you
indirectly buy stuff and help singers travel. Professionals like me can
also do it for the love of music and musical friendships to help
people, and I would like you to reconsider your point of view.

... not from cheating and trickery. I would be devastated
to replace a single note of one of the singers involved
because I simply could not stand it to be sung by anybody
else. It would be a dirty spillage in our creation.

Nice to meet you. You are a very nice person. Could we step back for a
second and consider the difference between 'mixing', 'stealing', and
'cheating'? From now on, you may see that 'mixing' is a more accurate
way to explain your situation and you do not need to feel so bad
anymore.

Cheating: You asked to fix the distortion and already accept cheating
and trickery so the audience does not hear your original creation.
Additionally, the equipment you used to record it, also physically
cheated the audience from hearing a good performance. Since you are now
'cheating', you might as well fix the rest of the song so the audience
does not hear obvious mistakes.

Stealing: I think what you really mean to say was not from 'stealing'.
Stealing a soloists fame and integrity by completely replacing what
they sing. But in this case, all you needed to do was have one note a
backup singer sings loudly. Reduce the volume of the soloist by 12db
and mix a backup singer over it to make it crystal clear again. Backup
singers always sing with a soloist and is never considered stealing,
just mixing to one track. As [Michael J. Anthony] noted, you can also
completely fade out and remove a bad word a singer sang and just leave
instrumentals in the background for a second.

Mixing: So now let's accept everything as mixing. Mixing one track of
the soloist with other singers and instruments. It is not considered
dirty spillage in your creation by taking multiple tracks of different
sounds and squeezing them into one track. If you still think that
mixing is considered cheating or stealing, then you have a problem and
all your singers would have to sing acapelo and monologues on the cds
with no editting from now on.

... magic in this production ...

Consider that the magic in the audience can be important too, and not
just the production. Additionally, the audience has no clue what
happened during production so the magic during production can be lost
and left with obvious distortion and problems. Wouldn't a singer be
much more embarassed to have you release a song with distortions and
annoying magic. I do not know of any performers that would be happy to
have an audience hear problems. Saving the ears of an audience is a
precious magical gift from any performer. I gained this knowledge from
my choir director and church singers (volunteers) who make the audience
happy because of a beautiful song, not a beautiful one-second note.

... thirst for adventure and musical friendships ...

If that could be more important than the audience, then you can safely
leave the audio as it is. Then next time, take advantage of the
situation and work experience you just learned to someday record better
so that both musical friendships and the audience can be happy. Not
only record better, but to record several takes of the performance so
you easily can copy and paste damaged audio without offending anyone by
accident.

Good luck and have fun.
Joseph Balogh

[j***@aol.com]

(Hellish Knobend)
... the idea of noiseprint substraction ...

This helps when your singer sings one longer note, and all of the
sudden coughing, page turning, clicking, banging, distortion or
whatever occurs. The plug-in is the soundforge noise reduction, in the
section noiseprint. First, select the portion of the long note that
sounds good and use the plug-in to capture the noiseprint. Second,
cancel and select the portion that sounds bad and use the plug-in to
apply the previously captured noise reduction characteristics. The
result is some noise outside of the good audio could be stripped or
deemphasized.

... liked [Michael J. Anthony] 's suggestion for
time stretching. But unfortunately I do not have
a cleaner section big enough to work on.

You do not need much to capture noise. But of course, you see the
results you are getting and only you know for sure if you are
successful.

Good luck and have fun.
Joseph Balogh

[j***@aol.com]

Sorry. Posting screwed up and may have duplicated this. Shit.

[Eric Fretheim]

Post by Matthew Fields
Just a follow-up on David's posting.
My music and my music-making are wayyyyy over in the other end of the
business from David's. It'd be hard to find two composers who are more
dissimilar.
And I've consistently had the experience of performers telling me that
my notes are "unplayable as written", even when I myself can play them.
But you know what? Good hired players never say that, they just say
"am I playing it in the right spirit?" And once a hot recorded performance
of a piece is published, the chorus of "it's unplayable" is suddenly
replaced by "Can I get a copy of that? I want to program it next March."

IIRC, this is an experience Chopin had with the orchestral
parts to a piano concerto... it was "unplayable" until the
right musicians played it.
--
Regards,
Eric

[Joe Roberts]

Matt,

It is no surprise that you went at it with grit and integrity, and managed
to establish the motivation and example for others to dedicate themselves as
well to the "project". I regret having to miss you in Tampa when you were
there, due to a family situation (ill Mom) which happened at the same time.
The way you tackled all the complex surroundings of that performance is also
reflected in the interest and thoroughness you show in dialogues with
musicians here. Please keep it up.

Of course I could have sent this by private mail. I think it belongs in
public. Best to you,

Joe

[j***@aol.com]

(Lynn) ... song is about how tired he is ...

That's a creatively hilarious way to fix a problem. Good thinking :)

[Michael J. Anthony]

Post by j***@aol.com

(Lynn) ... song is about how tired he is ...

That's a creatively hilarious way to fix a problem. Good thinking :)

Maybe I should write a song about how much I suck. The music would fit
perfectly! <g>

[j***@aol.com]

Oops. Maybe this conversation should be continued in the 'rec' groups
only? Currently, messages in this topic are crossposted to an unrelated
group, 'comp.music.midi', with midi stuff.
P.S.
Michael, you are funny too. :)

[j***@aol.com]

(Hellish Knobend)
... the idea of noiseprint substraction ...

Sorry. A mistake in the previous description, so here is the
correction. Based on the soundforge noise reduction plug-in.

1. Select the portion of the long note that sounds good.
2. Use plug-in to capture the noiseprint by previewing it.
3. Save it temporarily by applying the effect and closing plug-in.
4. Undo it since not needed yet.
5. Select the portion of the long note that sounds bad.
6. Use the plug-in again to see the previously captured noise reduction
characteristics.
7. Make sure to keep residual output.
8. Set reduce noise to 100 (max).
9. Set noise bias to 20 (max).
10. Apply the effect.

Test by coughing in the middle of a long note in a song and then apply
a noise subtraction to remove the noise.

[Citizen Ted]

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 13:35:56 GMT, David Sherman

Post by David Sherman
But I'm a "notes" guy. My training is in composition. I'm not an "audio"
guy. I know when things sound the way I want them to sound, but I don't
always know how achieve it. Once the notes are where I want them I have to
acknowledge that I don't have the "chops" to do the music justice. If I
want the best track, I need help. And I don't seek that help from a baboon
who cares deeply for my project - that does me no good. I want the guy with
the most experience and the best demo reel.

Indeed.

To get an appreciation for what a "pro" can do to assist a composer or
mixer in maximizing the quality and impact of their recorded music, I
recommend a complete reading of this book:

"Mastering Audio: The Art and the Science" by Bob Katz.

The book has been criticized for being too technical, but if you've
been noodling in Cubase, Sonar, Logic or Protools for any period of
time, you will grok most of what is discussed.

Most importantly, the musician or recordist will gain insight into,
and appreciation for, the mastering engineer. These "pro's" are not
pickpockets who tweak your compression for a king's ransom; they are
consultants who know more about the nuances of sound than you do. They
also know more about industry standards and how to best apply
technologies to make your work sound like you intended it (very often
on a 44.1KHz 16-bit CD disk - no easy task!).

I work for a music manufacturer, and I have some nice gear. I work in
Cubase, and rely on Waves plug-in's more than I should. Most of my
work is just noodling, but when I'm ready to publish, you can bet I
will submit my tracks to a mastering engineer. I will pay what I can
to get the best results from all my hard work. In the end, my CD will
sound much better than if I mastered it at home and burned it on my
PC.

After all, do you do your own dentistry? Why not? Don't you have a
Dremel tool and a bottle of whisky at home?

- TR
- a pro who relies on pro's.

[Jerry Gerber]

The argument to use a mastering engineer is an excellent one. It is
rational. But there is an equally rational argument for learning how to
master your own music, which is, to a certain extent, like learning how to
conduct one's own music. There is value in it because while composition is
about the quality and order of abstractions, mastering is about sound in its
infinite gradations and qualities.

The better the music is composed and orchestrated, the better the mix will
turn out. And the better the mix, the better the mastering person can fine
tune the sound. And fine tune it is, sometimes a 1/2dB at a given
frequency, with a certain amount of Q can make a difference between a
not-so-pleasing timbre and a lovely one. To try and balance and unify a
whole CD with multiple compositions is a worthwhile task for any electronic
composer, and most definitely encourage people to try it at themselves if
their equipment is of sufficient quality. If you're not satisfied, take it
to a professional mastering engineer. If you are satisfied, check out other
recordings to verify that your standards are not too low. If you trust that
you know how to do it yourself, this is the only way to become expert at it.
You might have to master 10 or 100 CDs before you become highly skilled at
it, or maybe you won't, but sometimes the composer is the best person to
conduct their own piece, and sometimes not. Same with mastering.

And this is true: Bob Katz book on mastering is the best on the subject.


Jerry Gerber
www.ottavarecords.com

Post by Citizen Ted
On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 13:35:56 GMT, David Sherman

Post by David Sherman
But I'm a "notes" guy. My training is in composition. I'm not an "audio"
guy. I know when things sound the way I want them to sound, but I don't
always know how achieve it. Once the notes are where I want them I have to
acknowledge that I don't have the "chops" to do the music justice. If I
want the best track, I need help. And I don't seek that help from a baboon
who cares deeply for my project - that does me no good. I want the guy with
the most experience and the best demo reel.

Indeed.
To get an appreciation for what a "pro" can do to assist a composer or
mixer in maximizing the quality and impact of their recorded music, I
"Mastering Audio: The Art and the Science" by Bob Katz.
The book has been criticized for being too technical, but if you've
been noodling in Cubase, Sonar, Logic or Protools for any period of
time, you will grok most of what is discussed.
Most importantly, the musician or recordist will gain insight into,
and appreciation for, the mastering engineer. These "pro's" are not
pickpockets who tweak your compression for a king's ransom; they are
consultants who know more about the nuances of sound than you do. They
also know more about industry standards and how to best apply
technologies to make your work sound like you intended it (very often
on a 44.1KHz 16-bit CD disk - no easy task!).
I work for a music manufacturer, and I have some nice gear. I work in
Cubase, and rely on Waves plug-in's more than I should. Most of my
work is just noodling, but when I'm ready to publish, you can bet I
will submit my tracks to a mastering engineer. I will pay what I can
to get the best results from all my hard work. In the end, my CD will
sound much better than if I mastered it at home and burned it on my
PC.
After all, do you do your own dentistry? Why not? Don't you have a
Dremel tool and a bottle of whisky at home?
- TR
- a pro who relies on pro's.

[Hellish Knobend]

Post by David Sherman

[....]
Your words feel like a tenacious piece of grit between my teeth, and if I
don't answer you, it would be for the wrong reasons, ie not wanting to hear
your advice again, because I feel you would only write more of the same. I'm
sorry for what I have just said if this is not the case.

I appreciate that. Your tone was similarly firm but respectful. However
looking over what I just replied, I guess I did just write more of the same!

Don't be so sure... you expressed similar ideas with a different language,
and that goes a long way to finding common ground.

Post by David Sherman

We seem to be living in opposite corners of the universe where music
production is concerned. I consider it to be a matter of the heart,
something I do in order to survive, something I do with love and
desperation. You throw about words like "pro" and "contract" as if they are
of some importance, your words seem senseless to me, all "sound and fury,
signifying nothing." (Macbeth, paraphrased)

I'm obviously not going to change your mind.

Don't be so sure... I'm all bluff and noise, a sort of angry, sulky bear,
but I like to try to learn from others....

Post by David Sherman
Maybe if I changed the word "pro" for "someone who has a lot of experience -
paid or unpaid - in the type of project you're doing," would that change
anything?

Of course. Yes it would... and you know what? You'll maybe laugh at me, but
still in the same vein of "unpaid collaboration", there are now a couple of
quite funky sound engineers willing to mix the album just for the pleasure
of watching me grin stupidly as it all falls into place. I know their work,
and have already played on several records they have made, and both are
willing to jump on the idealistic bandwagon to help. So, there is a chance
they will iron out the flaws I can't deal with. (maybe by having some other
Tom Dick or Harry sing the occasional note...? ! :-)

Post by David Sherman

(Although I am not claiming to misunderstand your words, I can see what you
meant to say. You were talking about status and prestige, big budgets and
cold, feelingless hands turning expensive buttons, healing the wounds in my
production with no joy and no involvement, in the time it takes for me to
finish this sentence. Or less, because I type like a drunk baboon)

Okay, okay, I get it. You think that the prefix "pro" is a synonym for
heartless, uncaring, aloof, and any number of other negative connotations.

Can be... not always... to draw on my own experience, I have made various
pieces of fluff for advertisments, corporate identities etc, and I have done
some sessions for other folks' CDs, and I have always tried to be efficient
and well prepared, but often with little heart. How can you compose a jingle
for Betty Malone's car hire company or for Mr Very-Rich's insurance company
with your heart when you're just shamelessly part of the marketing process?
How can you play parts on an album and not be aloof when you think it
stinks? (sorry, Mike)

Post by David Sherman
I'm a composer. I feel I'm a pretty good composer. I'll do anything it
takes to get the music done. I'll write or arrange and record live tracks,
use MIDI, samples, loops, Acid, Reason, Digital Performer, Protools,
anything.

Yeah... toys toys and toys.... I love them... If they were a woman I would
marry them.

Post by David Sherman
But I'm a "notes" guy. My training is in composition. I'm not an "audio"
guy. I know when things sound the way I want them to sound, but I don't
always know how achieve it. Once the notes are where I want them I have to
acknowledge that I don't have the "chops" to do the music justice. If I
want the best track, I need help. And I don't seek that help from a baboon
who cares deeply for my project - that does me no good.

Yeah... primates are especially no good at dealing with phase problems....
even if there are some very nice ones. CF: Nobby Piles, "Teaching your
monkey to mix in 5:1"

I want the guy with

Post by David Sherman
the most experience and the best demo reel. He won't be cold and heartless
- I won't let him.

(That's the one I liked... kind of struck a chord.)

Do you think that I'd just hand off my track to someone

Post by David Sherman
and tell him that I'll see him once he's finished? No, he won't move a
fader without my knowledge - or my approval. At the same time - I
desperately want his input. After all, he's the audio expert, that's why I
need him. If he tells me that a particular reverb isn't working to his ear,
or the compression on the vocal is wrong, I take what he says very
seriously. But the final decision is always mine.

(that too... same planet after all...)

Post by David Sherman
So my question to you would be: how is my music better served? By taking
everything into my own hands? Or by contacting a trusted associate with a
ton of experience (with me and many others) to help me finalize my project?
What gives me the best CD that people are going to pop into their players?
Your charge that music done professionally has no heart is just nonsense
and, respectfully, something you really should try to get over.

AHHHH but nononononono, I didn't say that. My own vision for this particular
project is for it to come to fruition for 0.00 Euro. That is part of the
whole dreaminess and cockle-of-the-heartwarming ideology of it.
About what you just wrote... bear in mind that I have a pointed aversion for
the word "professional" in music because it is constantly misused. Well,
that doesn't mean that I don't work with pros like myself (!), but the point
is, I work with whoever HAS the heart and talent (where artistic projects
are concerned, let's not apply that to jingles, etc!) be they amateur or
professional. I have an aversion to the terminology and what it evokes. Are
you familiar with the concept of Signifyer / Signified in linguistics? a
word is a code made of vibrations in the air that signifies an object or a
concept. Well... sometimes the signifyer [hey, am I spelling that right?]
escapes and starts to make it's own identity, the signifyer and new
signified (itself) emerge into one hazy connotation. For exemple... the word
"pro" in music" !!! it originally meant that you earned a living from it.
But nowadays it carries around its own personal aura made of false (or
true.. case sensitive) claims of efficiency and talent. Advertisment in
local music shop "Stink-core Cajun-fusion group seeks bassist. Pros only"
AAAAAAAGH you get what I'm saying? (I made the advert up... the real one was
much worse) Pretentious meaningless bandying about of words that are meant
to inspire awe.

I know, I know, professional also means efficiency in your job. "be
professional" etc etc. but, hey, I hate the way people misuse it and cloak
it in mystifying haze for musicians, engineers etc. I'm not saying that's
what you do personally, though.

Post by David Sherman

I basically make music with all my heart, music that tells the story of
people I meet, music that I give every hour of every day to making. It is a
vital part of who I am. Throwing about the words "pro" and "contract" would
feel like a meaningless stain on what I do. Signifying nothing.
I abhor the word "pro" when it refers to anything to do with music. It is a
hollow, cold word, and I have always battled with my colleagues to strike a
line through it in their lists of musical vocabulary. Music has nothing to
do with money, budget or status. It is an abstract world of thoughts,
feelings and humanism.

Okay, lets' stay on this tack for a second. Let's say that your CD is
completed to your satisfaction, and suddenly Mirimax Films wants to put one
of your tracks in a feature film. That can interpret into a lot of money.
Does that suddenly cheapen your music? Does that suddenly make your music
"cold" and "unfeeling" because you just got a hefty check for it?

Hey! Dogmatism free-for-all...
NO!!! I take the check and run... buy myself a nice car, go on holiday to
Torquay, and forget my dreams...

Only joking. Nonononono, it's all about circumstance anyway, when it boils
down to it. My present situation obliges me to be the way I am. My ideology,
although sincere, also comes from necessity. Like taking a turd, putting a
cherry on it and calling it a cake. Take my bank balance and my worries
about the future, stick a pretty musical creation on top of it and call it
art and career !!!!

Post by David Sherman
Suppose Mirimax contacted you prior to the completion of your CD and asked
if you could include a track of a certain style or on a certain topic that
they can include in their film. If you did accept the gig, would you create
that music in a cold, unfeeling and magicless way? Or would you pour your
heart into the project like you've done on everything else?
I'll also point out to you that paying the singers transportation (and I
assume lodging) is a form of payment. There is an agreement you made - a
<gasp> contract! Your contract was the agreement that you wold pay for
transportation in exchange for their work as a singer.
Call it what you want, but that's a contract!

Don't really agree with you about that.. but it's really just a detail. I
sincerely don't think of what we're doing in terms of contracts. We're all
so into each-other, no questions ever arise about money, it all happens
naturally.

Post by David Sherman
Are these singers so in love with your project that they would have spent
their own money to get to your studio? I don't think so. Otherwise they
would be back on the plane to come and fix the track.

Hey, silly! I'm in Europe, we don't get around on planes unless we have
to... Trains are much more fun anyway. Although they don't fly, which makes
them less funky... TGVs in France... quicker than a speeding bullet!

So, in essence, you

Post by David Sherman
paid them - "contracted" them for their service.
Nothing so terrible about that!

Boo hiss... yaaa boo. You're just bear baiting now. ;-)

Post by David Sherman
But yet you feel they did a magical session for you. Could it be that magic
can be made in the presence of a payment too?

Yes.. especially if the payment is made to my Swiss bank account. (donations
welcome)

Post by David Sherman

You suggest that I throw money about to solve my problem. You talk of
deadlines and contracts. I have chosen to produce my album independently
with no money at all changing hands. This is because of my vision of what I
want my music to be about and what real artistic collaborations mean to me
personally. (Please don't think I'm imposing this view on others, i realize
it is very personal.)

Okay, I'll ask again: What's your rush to release the album? The only time
I used the word "contract" was to ask you if you were under CONTRACT to
finish your project at a certain time. What's so bad about that? You seem
to be in a rush to finish this project. Why? Why not take your time and
fix the problem the way you feel it should be fixed, and to hell with
deadlines? It's self imposed anyway.

The rush to release the album:
In France there is a status for professional (in the REAL sense, so don't
take me up on that...) musicians which obliges you to play and declare (pay
50% charges to the government while you're at it) 43 concerts per 10 and a
half months. Then the government hands you some money every month based on
what you have declared. This year has been tough, because I recently left a
group that has been comfortably making a living from touring France for
years (I was with them for 5 years) without having time to find much work
for "afterwards". If you see what I mean. And my ten and a half months are
up soon. I will scrape buy this time, but from February I will need to be
seriously effective in selling my new group (live version of album) in order
to continue earning a living. The primary raison d'être of this album ...
drumroll.... is promoting the group so we can continue making a living. And
no album in March means poor promotion means few concerts means no money
means loss of status as a "pro" (aaagh) and end of career if I'm not
careful.
In other words, I need the album quickly to survive!

Technical stuff, but there's this whole amazing system in place in France
for musicians, actors and technical staff... les intermittents du spectacle.
The system is presently being reformed and is becoming harder and harder for
us, more and more artists are out of work and are cleaning dishes at
MacDonalds. (Oh, yeah.. there are none... forgot about that. Dishes at
MacDonalds, I mean)

See...
http://www.intermittents-danger.fr.fm/
http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2004/05/SCARPETTA/11184

Post by David Sherman
Is there a reason you have to absolutely have to have this project done by
the spring? What are you not telling us?
No, don't throw money at the problem, spend it wisely and frugally.
What I don't think you understand is that I feel paying someone for their
work is a sincere form of flattery. I'm saying, "I'm not making any money,
but that doesn't mean you shouldn't." I'm saying, "I value your work so
much that I'm going to try to pay you anything I can."
Someone with a lot of experience, knowing that you're paying him our of your
own pocket, will actually work harder and be more conscientious simply
because he understands how much you value his expertise.
Also, if I have my heart set on having someone like Branford Marsallis to
play on my project, it's easier to get him if I pay. Sure I can try to
convince him to work with me on my project for the love of it, and he just
might do it. But I assure you, my recording sessions with him will always
get bumped for paying gigs and his own projects. It could take the better
part of a year to get him in the studio.

Say hi to Branford...
But, before you sign his contracts, try to remember that his name is spelt
with one "L" not two...
Hahahaha hihihihihihi.... ahem, excuse me.

Post by David Sherman
There are dozens of sax players I can contact, but I had my heart set on
Branford. Also, Branford on my CD will certainly help sales which will help
me pay everyone else who works on the CD a lot better (don't tell me you're
not interested in sales, you're looking for a distributor!)
So what Should I do in your part of the universe? Get someone to work for
free who I didn't really want in the first place? Wait until Branford gives
me an hour or two of his time? Or pay the guy to assure he'll show up on
the day that I need him, and give me the time I need to record him properly?

[....]
The only contract there is is that concerning distribution. That has nothing
to do with the production, I am 100% producer of my own music, and it is all
happening for 0.00 Euros, pounds, dollars, or whatever. That is what my
dream was, and that is what is happening.

Aha! So you're not doing everything yourself. You need to make a deal with
a distributor. Great! Your logic would dictate that you do the
distribution yourself too. To strike a deal - sign a contract, in reality -
with a distributor is not cold and uncaring, but hiring an engineer is.

Do

Post by David Sherman
you see the problem I'm having here?

You're mean there!! Mean mean mean. That's twisting my words, not fair.
Hey... I can't do the distribution myself, distribution is impossible
without money, whereas music production can still happen for free. Two
different things, your own logic is confusing and unfounded.
CF Eugène Ionesco, A "tous les chiens ont quatre pattes". B "Cet animal a
quatre pattes" A "Donc c'est un chien". Or something like that.

Post by David Sherman

As for suggestiong that I have another singer sing the one note that has
clipped, again it is a matter of throwing money about, and it is in my book
a empty-shelled heartless suggestion I would never ever consider doing such
a thing, however efficient it may be, because what I do springs from
friendship and integrity not from cheating and trickery. I would be
devastated to replace a single note of one of the singers involved because I
simply could not stand it to be sung by anybody else. It would be a dirty
spillage in our creation. I chose them, they chose me, no money is involved,
only thirst for adventure and musical friendships.

This is all fine. But look where it got you: in a rush to fix a track that
is unusable.
Okay, how about this: do you have a previous take that you can "borrow"
that one note? That would be fix the problem without "cheating." Or are
you trying to use only one take performed all the say through? Sometimes
people - yes, serious artists do this all the time - make composite tracks
of several takes of vocals. Maybe that would work for you.

Tried all of the above, often do it myself without feeling I'm cheating. A
voice is still a voice, whichever take you use.


Keep it real, ô David Sherman, and thanks for opening my eyes a little,
reading my crap etc. Common ground is just around the corner...
Ben

[Michael J. Anthony]

In article <41b6430d$0$16344$***@news.wanadoo.fr>, ***@mynob.com
says...

How can you compose a jingle for Betty Malone's car hire
company or for Mr Very-Rich's insurance company with your
heart when you're just shamelessly part of the marketing process?

I have a song with that exact sentiment. It's called "Cereal". I'd love
if you gave it a listen ;-)

[Matthew Fields]

Post by Michael J. Anthony
says...

How can you compose a jingle for Betty Malone's car hire
company or for Mr Very-Rich's insurance company with your
heart when you're just shamelessly part of the marketing process?

I have a song with that exact sentiment. It's called "Cereal". I'd love
if you gave it a listen ;-)

What if it's for a product which I really like--like my espresso machine?

[Michael J. Anthony]

Post by Matthew Fields

Post by Michael J. Anthony
says...

How can you compose a jingle for Betty Malone's car hire
company or for Mr Very-Rich's insurance company with your
heart when you're just shamelessly part of the marketing process?

I have a song with that exact sentiment. It's called "Cereal". I'd love
if you gave it a listen ;-)

What if it's for a product which I really like--like my espresso machine?

You overestimate my power to kill your joy. It's actually about cereal,
the selling thereof, hence the name.

[Hellish Knobend]

Post by Matthew Fields

Post by Michael J. Anthony
says...

How can you compose a jingle for Betty Malone's car hire
company or for Mr Very-Rich's insurance company with your
heart when you're just shamelessly part of the marketing process?

I have a song with that exact sentiment. It's called "Cereal". I'd love
if you gave it a listen ;-)

What if it's for a product which I really like--like my espresso machine?

Hahaha !

In France there is this really cheesy TV advert for Carte Noire coffee (sort
of bitter-tasting cheap everyman's filter coffee...) with a song called "Un
café nommé désir"... and that has always amused me no end. How can you
associate coffee with desire?
"Oh darling, your coffee breath drives me wild."
...
"Let's get down baby.. oh, wait a minute, I'll make a cup of coffee to put
us in the mood

Post by Matthew Fields
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/

[Matthew Fields]

Post by Hellish Knobend

Post by Matthew Fields

Post by Michael J. Anthony
says...

How can you compose a jingle for Betty Malone's car hire
company or for Mr Very-Rich's insurance company with your
heart when you're just shamelessly part of the marketing process?

I have a song with that exact sentiment. It's called "Cereal". I'd love
if you gave it a listen ;-)

What if it's for a product which I really like--like my espresso machine?

Hahaha !
In France there is this really cheesy TV advert for Carte Noire coffee (sort
of bitter-tasting cheap everyman's filter coffee...) with a song called "Un
café nommé désir"... and that has always amused me no end. How can you
associate coffee with desire?
"Oh darling, your coffee breath drives me wild."
...
"Let's get down baby.. oh, wait a minute, I'll make a cup of coffee to put
us in the mood

If you're actually sensitive to the caffienne, a good caffienne buzz can...
well, use your imagination. Plus there's special things to do when your
mouth is freshly warmed.

That reminds me, I must go back and study Bach's Coffee Cantata again.

[j***@aol.com]

Hi [Hellish Knobend]. Hopefully our suggestions were informative and
fun. Have you made a decision what is the best course of action for
your project? Would be interesting to learn.

[David Sherman]

Post by Hellish Knobend
Keep it real, ô David Sherman, and thanks for opening my eyes a little,
reading my crap etc. Common ground is just around the corner...

Same to you, Ben.

Have a good holiday season.

David

[Michael J. Anthony]

Post by David Sherman
Years ago I worked on the jingle sessions for the Folger's Coffee account.
The ad agency hired Sheena Easton to sing the vocals on the commercials and
no sooner had she set foot in the studio that everyone realized that her
crazy Scottish (?) accent prevented her from being able to pronounce the
name of the product correctly. It always came out sounding like "Foleyers."
Unbelievable! You'd think for all the money the client was spending, this
is one detail someone might have checked!

Yeah she's Scottish. That's an East Coast accent. I'm from Glasgow and I
would have said it correctly ;-)

[Pete Thomas]

Post by Hellish Knobend
I am soon to mix an album that will be out in February/ March, and have two
niggling little problems that maybe you could help me with.
1: I forgot to turn off the air ventilation in the studio before recording
one of the lead vocals. In the quieter passages of the song in question the
hiss is a little flagrant.

EQ will only work if the noise is a fairly narrow band, ie it has a dominant
centre frequency. A parametric EQ might work for this. First sweep a boosted
frequency until it gets absolutely worse, then attenuate it (make it that
frequency quieter instead of louder), then narrow the Q so you cut out as
little of the surrouind ing frequencies as possible.

If the unwanted sound is a constant note, you might try recording that sound
with the the same mic in an identical position and invert the phase, it
might just work. Better if you were to use a bit of that recorded between
the vocal takes that you could loop.


Best regards

Pete Thomas - www.petethomas.co.uk

"An amateur practises something until they get it right.
A professional practices it until they can't get it wrong"

***********
On-line saxophone exercises, composition and jazz theory courses
***********
Saxophone Instruction DVD
http://www.dvdsource.co.uk/products/13001595
***********
To reply privately please use the link on my site.
For this to work it needs to be identical but without the voice, on a
different day the room may sound different if you moved things round, or the
singer isn't still standing there obviouyly. But its worth trying.